Sometimes, when all my girls end up at their keyboards at the same time I find myself thinking of how nice it must be to have all your lady friends in such a place where you can do lunch... though I suspect, we'd probably be kicked out for lunching together. Regardless, I love these little occasional virtual coffee breaks, and with implied consent from the ladies involved, I'm sharing this one:
From: Sarah
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
Subject: Mysogony says so.
<chat excerpt from Sabine and I>
me: My conundrum that I was going to ask you about: Platonic male friend meets you at a bar, downtown, at night, on a weeknight. You listen to some music and play some Uno.
The bar is in the center of a block. Your car is down the block and around one corner, his is in the other direction from the door.
You both leave the bar at the same time, not real late. It's well lit but the streets are pretty empty (and a bit slick). The guy IS still obligated to at least offer to walk the woman to her car, right?
Because I was thinking "there's no way John, or Raymond, or Squid, or Paul would let me walk to my car alone."
Sabine: Absolutely, at the very least he should have walked with you to his car and driven you to yours.
me: Gotcha. Yeah. Something there. Or caught a ride to his car with me. I follow. And I agree.
And I'm kind of ANNOYED that I agree, because were the two of us set upon by thugs, I'd be more useful than him. But it's the principle.
File under "sexism is alive and well, thank god."
Sabine: Filed.
What say the council o' brilliant wimmens?
From: Sabine
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: , EvilSara, OriginalSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, Trixie, Charlotte, Sarah
Subject: Re: Mysogony says so.
From:Charlotte
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: EvilSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, OriginalSara, Sarah, Sabine, Trixie
From: Trixie
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: EvilSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, OriginalSara, Sarah, Sabine, Charlotte
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: , EvilSara, OriginalSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, Trixie, Charlotte, Sarah
Subject: Re: Mysogony says so.
We need more instances in life where we can use the phrase "set upon by thugs"
just sayin.'
From: Charlotte
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2002
To: , EvilSara, OriginalSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, Trixie, Sarah, Sabine
Subject: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2002
To: , EvilSara, OriginalSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, Trixie, Sarah, Sabine
Subject: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
I have to agree. As a friend, safety should be a concern. While he may *think* you could take care of yourself in whatever situation presented itself, it would have been prudent, and thoughtful, for the two of you to walk to one vehicle together and then the drive the other person to theirs. How would he have felt if something *did* happen? Horrible. That being said, in addition, let's not forget we're in the South, and it would have been the gentlemanly thing to do and his GrandMaMere should beat him soundly about the ears for Not doing so. Just sayin'.
From: Sarah
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: Sabine, EvilSara, OriginalSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, Trixie, Charlotte
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: Sabine, EvilSara, OriginalSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, Trixie, Charlotte
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
Maybe that's the problem... He's from Not Here.
From: EvilSara
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: OriginalSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, Trixie, Sarah, Sabine, Charlotte
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: OriginalSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, Trixie, Sarah, Sabine, Charlotte
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
I do think it’s more expected in the South (and the SCA) to be a gentleman. I’ve noticed most Yankees aren’t taught this behavior, and so in his defense, it prolly never crossed his mind. That being said, you need to school him, cause he’s in the South now, and he needs to know the rules.
From: OriginalSara
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: EvilSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, Trixie, Sarah, Sabine, Charlotte
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: EvilSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, Trixie, Sarah, Sabine, Charlotte
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
There is also the possibility that he is not only lacking in a proper Southern woman's attentions to his raisin' but also lacking in ANY raisin' whatsoever. It's pretty sad but some of my most joyful moments at Puppy's school are when a child actually acknowledges that I have held the door open for them with a thank you. Even eye contact would be nice. When (holy crap!) they held the door for me instead? It's so rare that I want to run into the parking lot and find their parent and hug them. I'm afraid that basics of courtesies like these are going the way of RSVP skills. Just lost . . .
From:Charlotte
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: EvilSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, OriginalSara, Sarah, Sabine, Trixie
I can totally see that too. For years I have tried to beat (figuratively speaking) the Yes Ma'am, No Ma'am, into my children's heads. Most of their peers do not use this terminology, they aren't taught it by their parents. I'm not tooting my own horn here, but many of the manners my children have, their friends do not, because their parents haven't taken the time to teach them properly. Most of Britt's friends were handed cell phones years ago as a baby sitter and now they run amok and do and say whatever they please. Britt is NOT allowed to do this....But I digress on the issue at hand.
If Friend A is not from the South, that is one thing. Regardless, safety should still have been an issue with him and just plain common sense should have kicked in on that one.
If Friend A is not from the South, that is one thing. Regardless, safety should still have been an issue with him and just plain common sense should have kicked in on that one.
From: Trixie
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: EvilSara, Peeps(Sara), Bri, OriginalSara, Sarah, Sabine, Charlotte
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
I'm inclined to think its my responsibility, as in I should ask to be walked to the car if he doesn't offer and I think I need it. Because people are pretty clueless sometimes and it may not occur to them to ask. I have to admit, I'm bad about asking.
From: EvilSara
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: Peeps(Sara), Bri, OriginalSara, Trixie, Sarah, Sabine, Charlotte
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
Southern misogyny says women don’t ask to be kept safe – it is given. I would agree if this was a middle of the afternoon shopping trip, and the only problem is the number of bags you were carrying, if you need help with that then you have to ask. This is a safety issue – after dark and downtown.
From: Sabine
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: EvilSara,Peeps(Sara), Bri, OriginalSara, Trixie, Sarah, Charlotte
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
Don't start with the RSVP skills. Cause then it is just a short jump to discussing Thank You cards and watching Sarah's head explode. (And yes, Sarah, I know it has been 9 months. 9 MONTHS.)
From: Sarah
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
To: EvilSara,Peeps(Sara), Bri, OriginalSara, Trixie,Sabine, Charlotte
DAMMIT SABINE! And I was having SUCH a nice fucking day, too.....
From: Bri
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
That's 'cause most of us Yankee gals are taught to mace suspicious strangers into submission immediately upon contact.
Lord, I have a meeting and lunch and you people blow up the interwebs...
I had a conversation about manners in the South versus up there in Yankeeland recently. People were talking about passing stuff onto their children, whether or not certain things were outmoded, etc. It comes down to that there are certain things that are indoctrinated into those of us who were Raised Right in the South because they show you're being respectful to your fellow man. Some of those things are an insult out of the South - like calling someone our age ma'am. How many times have you heard a parent call their child ma'am or sir down
here? "Nuh uh, no ma'am! You come back here!" All the gender politics and equality has changed is that I'll open the door first if I get there first.
Not getting an escort to the car is... not exactly disrespectful, but it's certainly not thoughtful, gender aside. Girls take each other to their cars. It's something you do as friends. In my case, it's probably because I'm about as threatening and effective as a tiny kitten, should I be set upon by hoodlums. It's not much of an issue - all the men I know are Southern, SCA, or ex-military and tend to be protective no matter how capable you are. What I don't understand is why some people insist on considering that protective instinct an insult. Why would you be mad that someone cares about your safety and well-being? Bless his heart if he flat-out doesn't know better, but he should learn if he has any designs on living down here. Of course, you can't break the ultimate rule of good manners and point out his bad manners...
I honestly feel surprised and kind of abandoned if I have something heavy or unwieldy and a man doesn't offer to help me carry it. But then I'm not exactly a paragon of equality between the genders...
From: Peeps(Sara)
Date: Thursday, January 12, 2011
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Mysogony says so.
Lord, I have a meeting and lunch and you people blow up the interwebs...
I had a conversation about manners in the South versus up there in Yankeeland recently. People were talking about passing stuff onto their children, whether or not certain things were outmoded, etc. It comes down to that there are certain things that are indoctrinated into those of us who were Raised Right in the South because they show you're being respectful to your fellow man. Some of those things are an insult out of the South - like calling someone our age ma'am. How many times have you heard a parent call their child ma'am or sir down
here? "Nuh uh, no ma'am! You come back here!" All the gender politics and equality has changed is that I'll open the door first if I get there first.
Not getting an escort to the car is... not exactly disrespectful, but it's certainly not thoughtful, gender aside. Girls take each other to their cars. It's something you do as friends. In my case, it's probably because I'm about as threatening and effective as a tiny kitten, should I be set upon by hoodlums. It's not much of an issue - all the men I know are Southern, SCA, or ex-military and tend to be protective no matter how capable you are. What I don't understand is why some people insist on considering that protective instinct an insult. Why would you be mad that someone cares about your safety and well-being? Bless his heart if he flat-out doesn't know better, but he should learn if he has any designs on living down here. Of course, you can't break the ultimate rule of good manners and point out his bad manners...
I honestly feel surprised and kind of abandoned if I have something heavy or unwieldy and a man doesn't offer to help me carry it. But then I'm not exactly a paragon of equality between the genders...
Personally, I'm just taken aback by the lack of etiquette moreso than the "OMG a boy may have put me in danger." True- a woman walking with a man is less of a 'target' than a woman walking alone. Just mere presence, imposing or not, adds to the safety factor and I get that, but I'm also not really that paranoid about being tackled by a crank-head in that particular setting. But... it's just a NEW experience for me. I'm not angry or upset so much as newly exposed. I guess it just goes to show that I spend a lot of time with knuckle-dragging neanderthals.... God love 'em.
I don't feel the need to call my friend "out" but at least now I'm aware of the fact that I probably would have to ask for an escort if I felt like I needed one while in his company. No big deal. I do agree with EvilSara in that I think that our cultural standards do imply it as a given. And you guys proved it! (Well, Bri does make a good point about Yankee Girl vs. Delicate Flower of Southern Femininity.)
That was fun! Somebody else can host the virtual Coffee Date next week... and then they'll have something to blog about, too. :D
I don't feel the need to call my friend "out" but at least now I'm aware of the fact that I probably would have to ask for an escort if I felt like I needed one while in his company. No big deal. I do agree with EvilSara in that I think that our cultural standards do imply it as a given. And you guys proved it! (Well, Bri does make a good point about Yankee Girl vs. Delicate Flower of Southern Femininity.)
That was fun! Somebody else can host the virtual Coffee Date next week... and then they'll have something to blog about, too. :D
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